Hot Takes: Publishing Industry ft. Yellowface

Join hosts Nikki and Sam in their conversation about R.F.Kuang's contemporary novel Yellowface, and their interpretation of cultural appropriation, racism and the workings of the publishing industry.

💬 Read the book? Tell us what you thought—did we miss something, or totally nail it? Drop a comment!

📲 Follow along on IG: @readersoftwocitiespodcast
🎧 Listen now on Apple Music & Spotify

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

I'm so tired. Not like tired, but like exhausted. You know the difference? Kind of. Yeah. So yeah, today actually I'm very excited because this is one of the things that you we talk about this a lot, and we both have our share of like ambition, aims, and wants with this world that we're gonna talk about today. So it's actually very interesting to, while we're talking about the book, also dive into our perspectives as outsiders, which might not necessarily be 100% correct or true, but it's just what we think as outsiders world is gonna be. What do you think it is? And I think I always get very curious to know how people's brains work. Especially like as usual, the contrast of you actually writing the book and I me wanting to write the book. So we have a different stages of oh, I spoiled the industry. Okay, we're gonna talk about the publishing industry today. I was I was building it up, then I gave it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Okay. But now you know. If you didn't before, you do now.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

So what book are we talking about?

SPEAKER_04 1:06

You haven't read this, right? Did you get a chance to read it?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Girl, tried, and then it never happened. Even like I even downloaded the audiobook and the physical, like the e-copy off of Libby. I just never went to actually open it.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

I know, which I think you would really like this one just because it has somebody dying, which is always a plus when it comes to you. How is that something I'm gonna like? I mean, like you like what when when there's like a little bit of crime, but that's not in this book, it's not really a crime. So I guess you won't like it. It's just morbid.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, I mean, my favorite podcast is called Morbid, so see, I wasn't that far off.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Yeah, I think we just like the theme of because I know you like whenever there's a little bit of yeah. So yeah, we are going to talk about. I was actually going to wear a yellow t-shirt today, but then I remembered that we do a podcast, not really. It doesn't really matter what color I'm wearing. So I was like, never mind.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

It's okay for anyone listening. Sam's definitely wearing a yellow shirt. I'm absolutely wearing a yellow shirt. Definitely not black and says cat on it.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Uh it's it's like a civil engineering machinery premise, isn't it? Yeah. Represent. So we're gonna talk about Yellow Face today by Rebecca Quang. It talks about okay. Do you know anything about the premise at all? Okay, you're gonna love this. I love doing this because I yap a lot and you're just like come to the point, Sam. But this I'll try my I think feel I feel like I'm getting better with each episode, hopefully. So let's do this. So there are two writer friends, Athena and Jules. June. June, not Jules, I'm reading another book. June. So yellow face essentially at its core is a conversation or a thought-provoking kind of a read that makes you take a step back and actually think about who gets to write what kind of stories. What is a writer supposed to do as a writer? What are the responsibilities and what does freedom in your art actually mean or pertain? So, in this talking about yellow face, it's about a very, very well critically acclaimed, commercially acclaimed Chinese writer, American Chin Chinese American writer Athena, and her friend June, which I didn't clock till the next few chapters that June isn't Chinese. I just assume she was Chinese for some reason, but she's not. She's very white, as she puts it. She's like, I'm very white and nothing else. I and June's career is not as glamorous or not as successful in traditional terms. She's struggling with her writing, inspiration, numbers. Her debut didn't sell well while Athena's doing like, you know, the biggest deals, and she's working with like studios for her like books and stuff. So there is this side of June that is friends with Athena, but only because it is convenient, because she's successful. But what happens is in this convenience friendship, there's one moment when they actually feel like they can pretend to be friends and be there for each other after a successful night for Athena's celebration. And they spend like they have fun and they spend time at Athena's place, and then Athena chokes on pancake. They were having a pancake eating contest, and she chokes and dies. Yeah, she just like first chapter, Athena dies. That's how the book opens. And I'm like, after this, I'm not sure how to put down this book. I need to know what happens. And then June, who was with her at the last moment, watches her friend, like her friend in whatever capacity die and actually steals her manuscript.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Dude, do you know there's actual like cases of things like this happening? Is that the premise of this?

SPEAKER_04 4:55

So that is loosely, I don't know what how it how what's the scale of inspiration for this, but it's definitely loosely based on that.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

And how June then pretends that she wrote this novel about Chinese labor movement, and because Athena is such a the culture appropriation, the like the amount of backlash that would get down. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

So yeah, that's exactly what the whole book is about is how because June is so there's there's conversational dialogue about cultural appropriation. There is who gets to write what. She's like, if the book is good, if I've done my research, if I've I have all the resources that I've referred to, so what's the problem if I am white but I wrote a book about Chinese labor movement? So what's the problem?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

You don't understand how to like that's what I'm not saying that I'm just saying Oh I know, I know. I'm the the question itself is frustrating me. Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

But to So Rebecca, if you listen to one or two interviews about Yellowface, you kind of realize where she's coming from. Because Athena in the book, she grew up in America, she didn't actually live in China. So the conversation then is if the baseline is you had to be there to write about it, Athena hasn't really been there. She probably has not, I mean, she grew up in America just like June did, but different family background. So how much does if it was the other way around? If a Chinese writer writes about American characters, is that okay? Um, why is this okay? Why is that okay? So why are there these rules? If you have done it respectfully, have you done it not respectfully? Are you doing clickbaity stuff to just like get money? There are parallels. Jura and Athena, Chinese American girl and American girl. What they do for the community that they're writing off of and making money off of. So there are all these like parallels and grey areas. Basically, there is no hero in this. Like, there is no protagonist. I mean, there is a protagonist, but there's no like this is the redemption arc. And I think what I thought was fun about the book, it was an easy, a very easy read, is how unabashedly, how shamelessly you see June's internal turmoil, but you just see how easily she's able to lie about it. Throughout the book, there are numerous times where should have where she could have come clean, where she could have accepted the truth, but she keeps working off of Athena's ideas when she gets caught, then she lies again, then you know she gets disowned, but she covers it up, but then she like comes back. There isn't any remorse for stealing the book. There is remorse for, oh why can't they just accept me like I'm also a great writer. So there's a lot of it it just spirals down. There is no redemption arc. There is a lot of like you stop and think of hmm, that is really messed up. Like that is absolutely fucked up to do that. But there are also points where you see June attempting to contribute to the community that she's written about. Athena has always been the kind of person who takes other people's pain, packages it, and sells it for her own profit, never really engaging with anybody else, and never really contributing to like her mom is terrified of reading what that Athena what Athena wrote because they are the ones who've lived those tough times, and that tough time obviously has had an effect on their family. So her mom is terrified of reading Athena's works because it is so painful for her. But Athena takes all that pain, but because she is Chinese American, she gets a free pass to write somebody else's pain and sell it off and get critical acclaim out of it without her actually actively trying to engage with the community. But just because she's like the token Asian writer of the literary agency, she's like, We published this author, so we we are done with diversity because we published this big author, and she's like the token of diversity in the publishing space. So it was actually very frustrating to read this book, but it was also really I'm like, how far can you go? And the book does go very far. So I thought that was very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, I mean, the way that you can take somebody's story or someone's manuscript and just you know write it off as yours. Firstly, do you not have any shame? Like, what if they asked you to write something else afterward? You can't because it's not yours. And then also, like, that was your so-called friend, right? So, how could you think of doing something like that to a friend of yours?

SPEAKER_04 9:27

I think the June is constantly you see her in her monologue, right? It's like from her perspective, the book. And that is the other very frustrating thing, and also I'm like, where do you get the audacity? Is she is constantly justifying her actions for the goodwill of the project, for the good like, if I didn't write it, this book would have just died in dark. Or if I didn't do it, if I didn't make it what it is, this book wouldn't have been this good. Or she's like, I'm the one who put all the effort after the first draft. Because Athena, she writes like she has a certain method of writing, so she'll not share it with until she's done with her first draft. So nobody really knew that this story existed, so she could pass it off as her own. So June constantly at every step of the way, when she's met with the idea of getting exposed or the truth coming out, she is constantly pointing fingers and then being like, Oh, but I am doing justice to this story, oh but I'm the one who worked so hard on, you know, making it what it was. Athena did this bad or that wrong, or you know, she couldn't do this, but I brought this to the I brought this perspective to the book. So she's constantly seen throughout the book having somewhat of a like a small voice of consciousness, and then her bullshitting her way into making it okay, basically. Her agent, her editors, her agency, her friends. And it is a very like Twitter-heavy book. You're constantly like hearing about Twitters and Twitter and like they said that. So it was, I think she wrote this book around 2020, I think after COVID or something. So it's a very social media heavy how that affects writers, how that affects stories, how that affects who believes in you. So the she finds a way, June finds a way to justify her actions every step of the way to answer your question is no shame.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

That's wild. But also, if her her like reasoning is, you know, if the book doesn't get published, then you know it's gonna get lost or whatever. She could have just published it posthumously for her instead of taking it as her own and re- At that point she's basically rewriting it. She's not even like taking what's already written and enhancing it with the editors and the publishers and whoever. It's literally her like it's her take on it now. And as a completely white person, but like the way that she thinks is not gonna be the same as someone who is like Chinese American. But back to your point about like, even though she is Chinese American, living in the States, not really ever grew up in China, so how can she even write this? I mean, look at it this way: history textbooks, no one actually lived in the Revolutionary War to write the book, right? Like they had all of these primary sources, secondary sources. They probably had people who actually did live through it have like journals or something that they wrote and was able to use that as sources to be able to write this book. But like, same with like the Holocaust or like any war.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

That's what the logic Dune uses when she writes it. She's like, she's never been there either, and she's doing the same research, so I'm just gonna be as thorough as her and like write it. So I think the perspective, the the reason I mentioned Rebecca herself is when you read the book and you watch, I think because I was very interested in where this thought came from. So I was watching her interviews while I was reading the book, and then I got back to reading the book again, and it was so obviously Rebecca just putting her perspective into this because she studies, like she's doing language studies and stuff like that. So you could see, I feel like again, this is my projection of whatever. There is a lot of I think inherent also insecurity about like I feel like it's like this book is like her splitting herself, Rebecca splitting herself into two halves, her feeling Chinese American and her feeling American, her feeling Chinese and American, and she's like both of you fight now. Let's see who wins. I feel like I think she did this book more for herself, is as if what's right, what's wrong, what's allowed, what's not allowed. And her point in the interview was you can't when it comes to art, you can't tell someone you can't do a certain thing because you are a certain kind of person. Which I agree to a certain extent. But again, the the emphasis is on the intent of the person doing it. Are you doing it out of respect and love for the culture? Or are you doing it because it is an easy, you know, cash grab, money grab, whatever? Are you doing justice to the narrative? Are you actually engaging with what you are writing about? As somebody who does translations, Rebecca was very she was emphasizing a lot on when you translate stuff, when you are introducing people to other literature from other countries in other parts of the world, it's okay to not have these boundaries as limitations of a certain like only a Chinese person, or to put it the other way, an Indian person can only write Indian stories, or a British person can only write British stories, or a Chinese person in this case can only write Chinese stories. So that was kind of I think what the point she was trying to make through this book is how publishing or writing anything is one. You shouldn't be stopped from doing anything creatively just because you are from a certain place. Right. Doesn't mean you steal somebody's work and pass it off as your own, obviously. But she also wanted to talk about the sheer audacity of when people with majority, example in America, when people are like these diversity people, they're getting too much footage, they are getting too much, you know, it's so difficult to be in alignment as a white person, it's so difficult. But traditionally, statistically, white people are the ones who are occupying the most space in this industry. So it's it's not hard. So you wanting so June is very is trying very hard to be a minority, so she feels because she feels that the publishing industry is only going to push people from minorities. She's like, I have such a disadvantage because I'm white, which is so exactly. So that's what Rebecca also was emphasizing on is like the sheer audacity of your thinking after you know systemically making it difficult for other people to be in the limelight. Now, because they're getting their fair share of good literature and they're producing good work, they're commercially able to prove to you that they are just as good at writing and arts. Now suddenly it's if I'm not a diversity, they're not gonna if I'm not a DEI person, they're not gonna, you know, push me, I'm gonna I'm such a fair, unfair advantage. So that was the other part of the book, is where the you're so twisted in your head that you think this is the way to get. That's why she doesn't want to credit Athena in her work because she feels like, oh, if her w name gets attached, it's going to be all about her. Even though I did the writing, nobody's gonna remember, it's gonna be Athena's legacy and not mine. So that was also again from Rebecca's interviews, and then when I read, I was like, oh, that makes that's the point she's trying to make. Yellow face is the it's a it's an act of I could be wrong, but it's an act of trying to seem or like a trying to like to make up or trying to look like an Asian person, but it's not so the practice in itself is racist, but the word is not, is what she said. That's why the word yellow face, and that's why only the eyes on the cover, because that's what signifies like that's what symbolically represents like the fastest way to distinguish between Asian people, at least East Asian people, is the eyes. It's it's kind of a layered book, it is deep at times, better at times, and sometimes it's just like Rebecca speaking. You it's not even the character, it's just like you said the same thing in the interview, Rebecca. You literally have to, it's it's not even a fiction at this point.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

From taking what you have read in the book and the interviews that you have watched, how would you see it or apply it to how the publishing industry is right now? Because at least for me, I haven't really seen anybody with the same exact scenario or similar scenario as the book, but they're not just in the publishing industry, but in like fashion right now. If you've been noticing, a lot of like the Indianware has been taken in Fendi, all these other like super high-end brands, and they're just taking exactly what we have in India, renaming it, and then calling it something amazing and selling it for like thousands and thousands of dollars, but they give no credit to the origin or like the inspiration, which is like Indian.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Yeah, no, I've seen yeah, the Kula Purichapal, the scarf. One of the outfits, I think the Junkas, one of the outfits recently, I think it was Belahadir or something, someone. It was literally Git from Jabimet. I'm like, girl, Karina Kapoo did this like I don't know how many years ago. Like it's literally the same cut, the same colour, the same. I'm like, this is what Karina wore. Like, how how old is 20 years ago? 20 years ago, whatever. And then the dupatta that Pooh wears in Kabikushiga bigum. Um I'm like, that is not a Scandinavian scarf. It's a dupatta. Just call it what it is. It could be a scarf, sure. It there, I mean, different cultures have similarities. I'm not saying, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but Kolapur e Chappal. Seriously, it's literally from Kolapur, a place in India. You can't rebrand that into like a French open-tote sandal or whatever. It's still it's just it just comes from there. There is this discourse of Rebecca's favourite word is diaspora. I don't know completely what that means, but she says the word diaspora so many times. I am like sure. So this discourse of credit is what is it?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

The dispersion or spread of a people from their original homeland.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Okay, that makes sense. She is like the diaspora, the diaspora. She has said that in the interview so many times.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah, so diaspora is so like the dispersion of people, language, or culture that was formally concentrated in one place to scatter or disperse to live in separated communities. So, like the British used to be in one spot, then they spread. India used to be one spot, then it's everywhere, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

Yeah. That kind of a thing. So she's very vocal about the presence and the impact of these communities in different places and what they've brought to the table, and how it's important to recognize that fact as opposed to trying to use it as a cheat sheet to get your foot in the t foot in the what? Foot in the okay. I was gonna say foot at the table, but I was like, you can't put your foot on the table, that doesn't sound right. There are a few things that irk me, like make me feel weird. I'm Indian, right? But I have never felt pointed out, signaled that I'm an Indian in India ever. Like, obviously, because you don't call Indian food Indian food in India, you just call it food in India, right? So I feel like there is this thing that constantly, and it almost stressed me out to a point where I am constantly expected to behave a certain way, to act a certain way because I want because people expect me to match their version of what Indians should behave like. So it was very stressful, like even when I'm writing, I feel like I don't know what my identity is anymore. I'm not Indian. I'm an American I'm an Indian in America, but I grew up in India, so I'm not, you know, I'm not Americanized enough, but I'm also I'm like, how do I translate these words to you that you would understand the meaning? And you know it better than me, what being in these like a foot in each door kind of does to your identity, right? So when I write, I'm like, do I have to justify why there is an Indian protagonist in an English language novel? Do I have to justify like what visa they came on? I'm like, I just wanna write a story. I don't know if they need the you know USCIS details for this. So it kind of makes me question is that all I am? Like, is that all that I have to represent? Is just constantly being Indian. So when I was reading the book, I'm like, why? So the question that you asked is it almost makes me confused or annoys me that I have to act, I'm expected to act a certain way or write a certain language or be a certain way because I come from a certain place. Um so that's difficult to justify when I'm writing a novel. And the girl that I'm writing is Indian, but her name is Lucy because I wanted a name that means moon. Like an English easy name that it was moon. And but then if I have then under other book that I have, the name is Nisha, which means night. So I'm like, do I have to constantly justify why I picked a certain name? Why is like Indian girl's name Lucene? Why is like, you know? So it's that thing that I feel like I'm questioning myself a lot.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, I have like characters in one of my books that I've put on like the back burner, it's kind of just sitting there. But one of the girls is named Boomy and she has like earth powers, because that's what the name means.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

But if I name her Boomy and she had like fire powers, then are people gonna question like you named her like Earth, but she has not Earth powers? You know what I mean? Like, it's just like how much you have to justify. And also the book that I'm like trying to get published, I grew up here, but I have so many traditions or like festivals that we have done in India or like in Thailand, which has a similar translation to what we have in India, as festivals in the book. So it's like, can I r can I, as someone who really hasn't lived in India during those festivals, write about those? Who's to say? It's the same with um the characters in yours where she or like in the in Yellowface where she's Chinese American but never actually lived in China, so how can she write about something if she's never been there or experienced it?

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Yeah, and I also feel like that's again done respectfully, done in a way that genuinely helps the narrative and is done with research and is done with an effort that moves past the prejudice and you know stereotypes. You can, you know, that it's called fiction for a reason. So I think I do understand the topic that Rebecca like the theme that Rebecca was trying to show light upon is don't tell people what they can do and what they cannot do. It's nobody gets to decide these rules. But however, like she kind of holds up a mirror again in front of the publishing industry. Again, take everything she's written is fiction, right? It's not like exactly. But of course, it's inspired by her own experiences. So while you do want to do what you want to do, but how much of that is actually going to get the support that you wanted to get? Who decides what's a bestseller? Who decides you go on Good Morning America? Who decides your book is worth a six-figure deal?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Did you know that, or I learned this recently, that for your book to be number one on New York Time bestsellers, it literally just needs to sell an X amount of copies within like a day or two? Like your book could be absolute trash, but if you have sold like a thousand or ten thousand copies, whatever the number is, in like 24 hours, you're number one New York time bestseller. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04 25:27

That's the other thing, the metrics, right? So who gets to decide who's pushing for the market is so that your book is sold for that much and you get the number one list, right? And the other thing that really that truly wholeheartedly annoys me, aside from unremovable stickers on book covers like Yellowface, there's a recess book club. I'm like, why do you need to for why do you need it to be a permanent like we'll talk about that some other time? But the thing is, every author, when you read their bio, is Rebecca Quang is a number one New York Times bestseller. I'm like, it tells me nothing about her, it tells me nothing about her style, it tells me nothing about what kind of writer she is. Every author bio, Rebecca Ross is a USA Today Times bestseller, whatever, whatever. This, this, this person is this bestseller. I'm like, really? Seriously?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

That's all you probably said the same thing about Colleen Hoover, or like her, she's like the number one bestseller, or you know, something worded like that. Have you ever read Colleen Hoover's books? Other than maybe one or two of them. I have never read any. Absolute trash. I haven't read them either. But there was a whole thing on like TikTok of people clipping certain chapters or certain pages of her books, and I'm just like, how did somebody say yes? Oh my god, this is amazing, and then it spiraled into something so big on TikTok, or like book talk or bookstagram or whatever. It's like, okay, you guys are reading something, but don't tell me that this book is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

I don't know, the amount of book reviews that I have trusted. There's a book called Fear the Flames, and there's this bookstagram person, I don't want to name names, but I met her at one of the Barnes and Noble, like briefly, I was like, hey, I know you. Hi. She's also like Indian, Indian American, I think. And she in one of her book videos, she's like, Oh my god, you guys, like this book has dragons, this book has like top-tier enemies to the I you know how difficult it is for me to DNS a book. You know me personally as a person, you know me personally, right? And if I am unable to read a book, what does that tell you? Like if I'm able to unable to even hate read the book.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

I know.

SPEAKER_04 27:42

Uh like I am not trusting a word this girl's saying, or I'm like, okay, everybody has their open blah blah blah blah blah. We all know about that. But I'm like, in all your conscious like consciousness, dilpe hat rakke tell me you you love this book. Seriously? You look yourself in the mirror after talking about it was Nikki, that book is so painfully bad. It is like I want to cry. My my heart hurts.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

It has a gorgeous what Sam just said. She was saying, if you like put your hand on your heart and truthfully tell me if you actually like this book or not. You just you went full Hindi there real quick.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

So that's that's how you know it truly hurt me if I had to go Hindi for that. Look at this beautiful cover. I'm like, oh my god, you know, you've spent so much on the marketing and you've spent so much on like this. I'm sure you're pushing a good book. I bought the first and the second part hardcover.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Sam, go to like uh half-price books or something and sell it.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

And you know how difficult it is for me to say something is definitively bad. You know that, right? I try not to like bash things, it was embarrassing. I'm like, if I wrote this book, I would be embarrassed of myself.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

There was a TikTok that I saw. I was just like kind of scrolling through, and the girl, you know, was sitting down and she was talking about how like you can say you really liked this book, but do not come and tell me that this is the best book ever, that the prose is great, that the story is perfect, when all of it is just pure smut, or there's no like no character development, there's no plot, it's just straight up people getting together and lots of sex. And she's like, You can tell me that you liked this book, but do not make it like a book recommendation. Do not tell me like this book needs to be New York Time bestseller. Do not tell me that it's the best thing you've ever read before. Because if that's the best thing you've ever read before, then you have not read other books. Like you have not read books.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

Yeah, I think that's what the nuance is. You can say I really enjoyed this book, you know. That's like then I can understand. I can separate that, you know, from it being it's oh, it's such a great book. It's gonna be like a book of the year. I'm like, it is I I just so I think from that point on I got burned twice, and that point on I felt like I think I'm just not going to go here for book recommendations. I can ask friends, I can ask you, I can go with the vibes of the plot or whatever. But I feel like I from that point on, I don't think I've taken a book recommendation like from book talk at all. I'm like, I don't trust anybody.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

The only book talk or bookstagram, I think it was bookstogram. I didn't I don't think I had TikTok then, was when a court of thorns and roses was really popular and everyone was saying you should read it. I had put it off, put it off, put it off, put it off, put it off. And then one of my friends from university was like, Nikki, it's my favorite series. You have to read this. Said okay, fine. I hated the first book, absolutely hated it. I was like, okay, you know what? It's okay, I'll push through. She kept saying book two is better, and it did. Book two did get better. It was a lot, but it got better. Then I was like, okay, let's start book three. I think I read two pages and I have never touched it again.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Don't say that. I have the first two paperbacks because my friend wants me to read them.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I think you would like it since you liked Powerless. I feel I think I might not hate the book. I feel I don't think you'll hate it, but I will say everyone has said this. The first book is hard to get through, but it gets better from book two. I own the first three, but I never bought more than that because I was like, I can't, I could not even get myself to read book three.

SPEAKER_04 31:47

My friend is like, book five is my favorite. Please get to book five. And I'm like, girl, this is just a lot of books. The other thing which I again, very touchy subject, anything race, identity, country, very touchy subject, but which I think was I do a little, I do agree a little bit, is again, I'm assuming that Rebecca wrote this. She says, because she's justifying her actions, right? She said, just because Chinese people were discriminated against doesn't mean they couldn't be racist as well. And it's actually well documented that Chinese laborers did not get along with Arabs and Moroccans, blah blah blah blah. So she brings a point that just because they were discriminated against doesn't mean they weren't racist or they weren't harmful to someone else. And I'm like, girl, you're a nerve.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I mean that's true though, if you look at it, not just like Asians against other Asians, but a lot of Asians don't count India as part of Asia. They're like, and I'm like, okay, then where do where are we supposed to be? Where do you think we are from? We're not Europe and we're not Australia, so are we our own continent? Like, it doesn't make sense. We're Asia, but that's also the same people that you can't tell, like, like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan, and all of those are also part of Asia. They're gonna be like, no, they're not. But if you look at it, like in the US itself, white people, Asians, Mexican, Latino ex Latinx, Latinx, yeah, Latinx. Like everyone's racist against everybody, but you only hear certain groups over other groups.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

So she has a point. So that's what I'm saying. Like, it obviously comes from June's point of view, written by Rebecca, but I just think when you read the book, she makes compelling points about both sides. That's what I'm saying. Like, she brought out her Chinese side and her American side, and they are like, now you talk, you both have a conversation now and see like because I wrote, Don't be terrified, but I wrote like a whole page worth of note after that chapter. Nikki is very disappointed. I wrote very, very intrigued by this blunt honesty about race and privilege. Feels like Rebecca tore herself into two halves: the Chinese kid in America and the American kid in the Chinese group. And then she made these two halves interact and live in this world and open about all of her insecurity and complex insecurities and conflicts about her identity as an immigrant. That's literally what all this book, what I can feel this book is about. It's literally all of her did I make it, did I not make it? The Chinese kid in her, which is in an American group, and the American kid in her which is in a Chinese group. It's all that, um, that just those two personalities kind of having at it and be like, phew figure this shit out. And then coming to the conclusion that it's okay to be just human, like, you know, you don't have to adhere to a certain label, you don't have to behave a certain way because you're a certain label, or people expect you to behave a certain way. Which I thought at the end, you know, a person is just their choices. You could be of any race, but you are just your choices. So I thought it was a very, very interesting conversation of two Rebecca with each other in this book. Yeah. And in conclusion, I think Yellow Face by Rebecca Kwang is a very nice, fun read. Don't take it to heart too much, but it also makes you pause and think about these things about your identity, race.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Don't take it Sam, don't take it to heart too much. You wrote an entire page of notes. I think you took it to heart a little too much.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

I mean, don't take it to heart as a like don't take it too personally and get defensive about it. Don't take this book as an attack. Take this book as a conversation of or a thought-provoking exercise of the kind of world that we live in right now. Commercial side, you know? The race side, just a human being side. It's a very, very thought-provoking book written very in a fun way, so it it's like a breezy read. It's not like a very heavy read. Very fun. You are like, oh my god, these people, you'll be like, oh god, I can't believe she said that. But some of it is very, you know, you're like, I can't believe she said that. I can't believe she had the guts to say that. So, all in, I would say I recommend Tang Yellowface.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Don't be like me and download it, be prepared to read it and then never read it. Yeah, eventually get get get back to it. I will, I will. It I've just been in such like a reading rut lately. I started this book and I was like, oh, this is going great. I read for like two or three days straight, and then past two days I haven't read a single word.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Okay, so it's not like a project, just read whenever you want to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, I know. Yeah, there's so many books I started and have not finished in like two months.

SPEAKER_04 36:52

So honestly, there's so much going on in the world. Don't put yourself under another pressure of you have to do this, I'm not doing this. I stopped reading human acts because I couldn't take it. I'm like, I need I can't, there's too much going on, I can't read. That book is so heartbreaking. Yeah. So I'm like, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

So I'm reading, I'm reading the twisted series instead. What are those books? I have thoughts about that series, Nikki. You're gonna hear all about I have thoughts. Another book talk sensation. I have so much to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

I've heard many things about those books. Yeah, I'll tell you more things. Lovely. Thank you for sticking around to the end of this chaotic and very real episode. This is Nikki.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

This is Sam, and thanks for listening to the readers of two cities. Listen to wherever you're sitting, whatever city you're listening from. I completely butchered that. Wherever you're sitting, what was I missing?